New Haven Independent

posted by: The Professor on February 9, 2010  2:03pm

My recollection of history may be a bit off here, but wasn’t the Berlin Wall in Berlin?  Who is east Berlin and who is west Berlin in your conception, Paul?  And when can we expect the other side to start sending radio broadcasts over the border?

posted by: pine rock on February 9, 2010  2:18pm

that fence has been up since before i move to hamden.that was in 1953 look at the picture is that a stop&shop; cart or a savalot.that is what you the people leave on the Hamden side.LEAVE THE FENCE UP.

posted by: Freedom of the peopl on February 9, 2010  3:26pm

It is an old line, simply put justify seclusion of people and segregate them why? because of something in 1995?, New Haven had crime issues then and still does not as then anyway and it had nothing to do with how bad brooked was.  I can’t stand to be a citizen in a country that has incompetent leaders ruling and keeping people safe for their “own good” We as a country have some of the most outdated methods of dealing with issues that affect us in the modern day. In 1900 having a fence up would have been we don’t want there kind on our side, how different is that now in 2010 when the people who were the reason for it have been gone for 10 to 15 years. Common Sense says its ignorant leadership why should people have to convince anyone that they deserve access to grocery stores and jobs in our day and age? And it does take about 2 hours from brookside going downtown on the B bus then jumping on the D bus to hamden someone should let the hamden mayor take that ride sometime.

posted by: Jo on February 9, 2010  3:52pm

Here we go again. The Berlin Wall, it’s as if criticism of this sensationalizing headline has made Paul more determined than ever to keep using it.

I really think Paul, you should repeat it over and over to a Hamden resident who was seriously injured by a Rockview resident years ago. Say it to their face, over and over. See how good you feel about yourself when you get home, you, who is the first to call police at the sound of shots fired in your neighborhood, right?

This Berlin Wall motif seems to be used to represent the moral high ground, the position that is humane and decent, inclusive and liberal. What is decent about smearing a crime victim? What is decent about abusing them that way, painting them to be stalinist-type human rights haters? Some residents were traumatized Paul. Do you know how to treat traumatized people?

In your neighborhood, if someone so much as runs a flop house with too many cats, you write a story about how they are victimiing neighbors.

But people with kids who were fed up with gunfire? exclusive, racist, elitist pigs, right? 

How is your perspective and your rhetoric suitable for today’s problems? MOving us forward from where we are today rather than where New Haven was 30 years ago? How is this kind of outdated and aggressive, special-interest, stereotyping rhetoric NOT holding us all back?

Hamden’s mayor appears to have a reasonable position. When a history is that bad, you have to expect to prove yourself.

The notion that there is not a single current Ribicoff cottage resident that had anything to do with the past problems is just not true, so anyone that was involved and is now currently a senior living at Ribicoff should understand and be patient.

You just don’t tote an illegal gun and packets of crack into a neighborhood in 2001 when you were in your 60s and a short time later expect a fence to come down because you’ve been mellow since then and hey, at the moment, you want the convenience of driving straight into Hamden rather than down and around.

People who tote illegal guns so few years ago shouldn’t have bleeding heart liberals claiming they aren’t getting convenient enough access to Hamden.

The stereotypes are being peddled by New Haveners.

posted by: Jonathan Hopkins on February 9, 2010  6:48pm

Pasta doesn’t cook itself. No matter no much I sit back and lean on the counter across from my stove top, the pasta just won’t cook itself. Eventually, I figured out that I had to get up, turn the burner on and stir the pasta into the boiling water. Once I got involved, the desired outcome was achieved.
Hamden needs to get up, and help to make this a successful development. Ask for programmatic pieces, like empty, privately developable lots, buildings with store fronts, park space, etc. Let the city know you are willing to use the space and get active in the community so long as Hamden’s Pine Rock resident’s needs are met as well. If 10 residents pledge to use a coffee shop if its built, or if a business owner from Pine Rock pledges to open a store if the city pays for security cameras and landscaping, West Rock would be well on its way to turning over a new leaf. The amount of lethargy and apathy in Pine Rock could turn the Upper East Side of Manhattan into the Soundview section of the South Bronx in a matter of months.

posted by: 387721110 on February 9, 2010  6:58pm

The Berlin Wall is kind of a dated reference.  To appeal to younger readers, I think it is more apt to call it the Israeli Apartheid Wall.  (Off subject, but the connection people failed to see between Florida voters and Pat Buchanan was their equal support for walls, whether along the Mexican border or the West Bank.)

At risk of dating myself and betraying my politics, I am prepared to stand on the border of Hamden and New Haven and shout the words of former President Reagan: “Tear down this wall!”

posted by: Chris o on February 9, 2010  10:34pm

Its a fence not a wall. I find this type of fence objectionable- in so many ways.

If there is a public right of way on the Hamden side, this fence should be opened today. If its private property give them one year to erect their own fence wall within current zoning regs. then remove this inhuman fence.

posted by: EastRocker on February 9, 2010  11:45pm

kind of a silly thread, but, honestly, the Berlin wall analogy is kind of stupid.  The Berlin wall was built by a government to keep its own people from leaving (east Berlin for west Berlin).  Hamden built its wall to keep people outside.  One was a de facto prison, the other is just a fence.  Maybe better to stop using the term all together.

posted by: walt bradley on February 10, 2010  1:05am

the city of new haven hid this community because it knew it would generate problem citizens.  let the city of new haven deal with it’s decisions.
mayor jackson is a good man, and i imagine that as an african american it kills him to know that when the city builds this new disaster it’s doomed.  what do you want this guy to do.  the folks on the other side of this fence are screwed if they take the fence down.  no bank in the world will help them out when the property values tank, and if these… no, WHEN these new dwellings become gang territory…. well, you know the end.
leave the fence.  i grew up in hamden, and today i can say “ich bein ein hamdener” . 
or how about “mr. jackson - don’t tear down this wall”
viva scott jackson

posted by: Bruce on February 10, 2010  10:35am

The fence has been up for over 50 years.  I don’t see the big deal with waiting a few years to see if conditions improve with the new development.

pine rock: when the fence comes down those carts will not be left on the Hamden side.

posted by: Esteban on February 10, 2010  12:01pm

I am truly perplexed. Considering Mr. Bass’ Stasi sympathies, one would think he’d want to fortify the Wall, not tear it down.

posted by: Jonathan Hopkins on February 10, 2010  12:13pm

Walt,
Those projects were built before the vast majority of Pine Rock’s houses were. Your ignorance of historic fact is feeding you bias.
The projects were first located there because design principle for post-WW2 affordable housing that were adapted from Le Corbusier’s ideas on urban planning, which called for mass produced housing attached pods set in nature. This West Rock development was a suburban ideal-affordable housing set in a park. Unfortunately, the reality was that there were no jobs out there, nor were there enough jobs in central New Haven. Housing prices in Pine Rock are going to drop no matter what. In 21st century America, we are going to see a depreciation in the value of homes in communities that are not designed around walkablility. People do not have the capital to continue owning multiple cars and operate them, banks are not loaning like they used to for cars and homes, so places like Pine Rock will become worthless because the cost of living their is far too high-the same will most like be true for West Rock, which is why I constantly suggest that Pine Rock work with East Rock to make a town center with shops, businesses, park space to create a centralizing area that would allow for both communities to walk to their needs. The 1950s was about sitting back and relaxing to watch tv, Hamden cannot afford to sit back and watch from the other side of the fence, they need to get involved. And if no one is willing to compromise with Hamden by giving them programmatic pieces after they’ve tried negotiations, then I can understand their stance, but doing nothing is unacceptable and is an embarrassment to the people who worked and fought for American’s to have a life of leisure.

posted by: Bob Solomon on February 10, 2010  2:18pm

Rockview and Brookside were built in West Rock because New Haven’s alms house had been located there and the City owned the land. The site was selected before the developments were designed.

posted by: nfjanette on February 10, 2010  2:24pm

The Berlin Wall is kind of a dated reference.  To appeal to younger readers, I think it is more apt to call it the Israeli Apartheid Wall.

There is, of course, a security wall in Israel that was built to stop a campaign of suicide bombings; it has been successful, for the most part.  While there has certainly been debate about the course chosen for some parts of the wall, it’s absurd to fling around the term apartheid in that context.

posted by: Jonathan Hopkins on February 10, 2010  6:23pm

Bob,
The way I worded that sentence is inaccurate and doesn’t make any sense-design practices often come in response to location, not the other way around as I made it sound like-so thanks for clarifying. The point I was trying to make was that I do not believe that New Haven located Rockview and Brookside there as a way to get them out of the way because they didn’t want to deal with the it-quite the opposite, really, New Haven was proud of its new housing developments. Public housing at this time was still housing for largely middle and working class residents with lots of ethnic diversity, so the only thing that ignorant 50s era urban planning principles did was not immediately alert the housing authority and the federal government that this was a terrible place for housing. The architectural choices to design wildly spinning barracks located in a park-like setting would have come afterward. ‘Design principles’ were not the guiding force in the placement, but rather something that did not stop the specific placement.
So I guess I’m only saying that there was no ‘design principle’ that said “Let’s place housing there”, but rather the urban planning practices of the day did not see anything wrong with a location like that and therefore no reason to locate it elsewhere.
Do you happen to know if there were other locations considered?

posted by: Paul Smith on February 10, 2010  8:22pm

The “Berlin Wall”?

Really?

From the hysterical label you attach to it, you’d have to come away believing that the Hamden residents are the bad actors here. And Darnell Goldson clearly believes so, and is willing to whore himself out to any media organization in town to get some free ink.

What I’d like to see is an interview with someone in the Pine Rock neighborhood. Don’t they get a voice here? They’re property owners, Hamden voters, and stakeholders in the area. Instead we hear from people who don’t live there, don’t own anything, and don’t care about the quality of life issues for these residents.

Instead we get suggestions that Hamden is full of racists (who happened to elect a black mayor) and that a crime problem from ten years ago is ancient history.

The city neglected these developments and the housing authority turned its head when ex-cons and parolees started moving in with their aunts, grandparents, cousins, etc. and causing trouble in this area. The place was difficult to police, difficult to maintain, and the city was all too happy to make it Hamden’s problem.

But Hamden didn’t ask for this and the Pine Rock residents surely didn’t ask for this. Yet the Independent wants to paint them as the bad actors here.

This isn’t the Berlin Wall. Nobody put a gun to New Haven’s head and told them to build and forget about a housing project in its deepest corner that wasn’t served wainny other infrastructure. Now you want Hamden to re-zone its neighborhoods, inflict crime on its residents, and kick money toward a project it never asked for?

Talk about limousine liberalism. You sound like you’re fighting poverty in 1966!

We’ve learned something in the meantime: projects attract crime and keep people in poverty. They don’t work. We have a better way to spend $120 million in the city.

posted by: Bob Solomon on February 10, 2010  8:34pm

Jonathan - this was the fourth public housing site in New Haven.  The first, Elm Haven, was identified as the most blighted area of New Haven.  The second, Farnam Courts, was identified as a Wooster Square development, but I91 cut if off from Wooster Square and downtown.  The builders took great pride in squeezing in an extra 60 units at Farnam, by tearing down a grape garden.  The third, Quinippiac Terrace, was on the Quinnipiac River and, like Elm Haven, was built in barracks style flat roof housing, oriented away from the unsightly river.  These were all completed under the National Housing Act of 1937.  When a new act was passed in 1949, the City and the Housing Authority identified the old farm which contained the alms house.  Ironically, the site of the previous alms house was at Edgewood Park, designed by Frederick Law Olmstead.  I don’t know if you ever saw Rockview, but it was an attempt to replicate the worst of the suburbs, along with the same barracks buildings - rolling, twisting, circular roads going nowhere, without sidewalks.  The history of Westville Manor and Ribbicoff, at the same larger site, is more complex, since they cam later, but there is a wonderful description of Oriental Masonic Gardens in “From Bauhaus to Ourhouse,” by Tom Wolfe.  You know much more about architecture than I do, but I always thought of the early public housing as being the only American attempt to create the Bauhaus notion of worker housing.

posted by: Suburbanite on February 11, 2010  11:49am

We should build a wall around the entirety of New Haven. The suburbs would be better off altogether.

posted by: Brian on February 11, 2010  12:01pm

I like how you don’t bother using quotes around “Berlin Wall” as if it is literally *the* Berlin Wall.

Are you against all fences everywhere?

If so, can we expect a feature on the gates that seal off Yale colleges. They’d be a DMZ.

You could call Police HQ the Kremlin.

I guess the fence in my yard something like a Berlin Wall too. I put it up to keep people from wandering into my home and stealing things.

I guess I should have invited them in, paid them to move across the street and gotten New Haven to build them a house, installed a sidewalk leading to my valuables, and gotten the Independent to write sob stories on their behalf.

You should decide whether you’re a news organization or an advocacy arm of the city’s housing authority.

posted by: Bob Solomon on February 11, 2010  1:15pm

Brian - You provide examples of fences around private property and fences that keep people out of a particular space.  Noone is objecting to the fence you construct around your own property.  That’s really not analagous to a fence that keeps people out of a part of a town, with the result of making it much more difficult to use public and private services.

Suburbanite - That’s quite constructive, especially with the typical anonymity of someone who is not willing to engage in dialogue.  However, what suburb do you live in, which hospitals do your neighbors use, where do you and your neighbors work, where do you go to restaurants.  While you’re at it, imagine what would happen to your suburban stores if Stop & Shop and others could not lure people from New Haven?  Or if you could not benefit from the tax exempt activities that New Haven property owners subsidize, well beyond PILOT.  But, if in the end, that’s what you want, good for you.  Build the wall high, lock yourself in and enjoy.

posted by: Jonathan Hopkins on February 11, 2010  2:34pm

Paul Smith,
THE WEST ROCK PROJECTS ROCKVIEW AND BROOKSIDE WERE BUILT AND OCCUPIED BEFORE THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE PINE ROCK NEIGHBORHOOD WAS!!!!!
Also, suburbia’s foundations are the largest public housing project in the nation’s history. The federal government commissioned the construction of millions of homes per year on green fields immediately following WW2. The entire infrastructure that allows suburbia to exist-highways, arterials, connectors, sewer lines, power lines, sidewalks, etc-was paid for entirely with public funds. Prior to WW2 developers had to privately pay for rail lines and trolleys to make land outside central cities valuable. That changed when America decided to stop investing in its cities and to instead create sprawling suburbs, and their infrastructure. It is the funniest thing in the world when suburbanites talk about “liberal” policies in cities, when the foundations of suburbia are flat out socialism, followed by exclusion-ism. The government gave half the country a leg up to increase their standard of living, and this group proceeded to turn around and yank the latter up behind them.

Suburbanite,
American cities used to be the envy of the world. We had the most beautiful, spacious, clean, organized and prosperous cities in the world. That changed when the federal government decided to choose suburban sprawl as its only policy. Instead of funding private citizens to fix up old houses, rework tenements to hold less families, and other logical things, we decided to demolish enormous sections of cities to build ugly structures and highways, fund new construction and infrastructure for suburbs that in 2010 we can no longer afford to maintain. The sheet rock layers, road pavers, pipe fitters, construction workers, etc that were able to move from the working class to the middle class through government contracts for new houses now can’t afford their cars, their houses or their lifestyle because suburbia has too many hidden costs that have been subsidized since the beginning, but no longer are at the rate needed to sustain it. Now that our country has no capital to build at the rate we used to, these people’s lives are being destroyed because there aren’t enough walkable, centralized towns and cities that are still desirable. Pine Rock is the problem. HANH and Hope VI are trying to offer a solution, if Pine Rock doesn’t get involved, both communities will fail. If Pine Rock gets involved and helps create a vibrant neighborhood center with shops, businesses, parks and houses, then both community’s futures can be sustainable.

Pick up a got dang history book, got dang it!
We send $400 billion a year to the middle east for oil, Dubai is erecting record breaking buildings just for the hell of it entirely with our money! We can’t even build decent looking town halls or schools that look like anything other than prisons:
http://www.newhavenindependent.org/archives/upload/2009/12/IMG_7535.JPG
yet they build a sky scraper that practically reaches the moon! Everyone, stop bankrupting this country by continuing to invest in the suburban lifestyle, start investing in walkable towns and cities, reclaim our local agriculture and rebuild New Haven so that it can be the envy of the world again and not some dumping ground and punchline for ignorant, selfish, toddler-like, useless suburbanites.

Bob,
I was more asking about whether or not a location other than West Rock were thought of for this second round of public housing that popped up immediately following WW2, some of which were placed (along with highways and road improvement projects) based on this HOLC study:
http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs203.snc3/21055_1233532313533_1085910074_30568817_3869926_n.jpg
I think Robert Orr designed the 3 original brick projects. The unfortunate thing about the first round of housing is that it was somewhat unnecessary. This country has an awful 20th century history of demolishing and rebuilding instead of renewing and preserving.
http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs223.snc3/21055_1233532393535_1085910074_30568819_3322432_n.jpg

http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs283.ash1/21055_1233532433536_1085910074_30568820_3868621_n.jpg
These housing, for example, were torn down for Elm Haven. If the federal government had instead funded the renovation of these houses, Dixwell would likely be one of the most beautiful neighborhoods in the city, since much of the demolished housing was very similar to the colonial buildings that face the green on Elm between Temple and College. Instead, we got these ridiculous buildings:
http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs203.snc3/21055_1233532353534_1085910074_30568818_3696462_n.jpg
Also, I think it was Frederick Olmstead’s son who designed Edgewood Park.

posted by: Jo on February 11, 2010  3:36pm

I got interested in Solomon’s reference to New Haven’s Almshouse and looked up some very brief info about poor houses.

New Haven’s poorhouse got moved out farther and farther. Edgewood area was sort of the boonies, had estates, farms but not row houses, worker housing.

Then there was more demand as industry grew in New Haven, and the land was developed with all the Victorian houses we see today. The Poorhouse was pushed out to West Rock and had some farming too—I guess they raised some farm animals.

Yale has been involved since way back too. I read something that said that Timothy Dwight and some others tried to enhance the place with I guess farming, other things to help people be productive and have dignity.

I read an old newsaper article where the city decided that babies should not be born at the almshouse, but either at a program at Yale where poor pregnant women got free care or at Waterbury hospital to prevent the stigma of having been born in the poorhouse, which apparently was a permanent stigma.

I also read the West Rock location described as New Haven shoving its poor up against the Hamden border and that Hamden shoved its poorhouse up against the Cheshire border. the poor being pushed farther out to the edges was the progression as land was needed for homes for people who were working and self-supportive.

The thing about Quinnipiac was interesting too because the river was not considered great real estate. Ironically, now, the fishing village on the Q-river in New Haven is prime real estate and the Quinn housing development is really nice.

But apparently full integration in the neighborhoods did not work or did not entirely work or did not work enough, as we are again building housing for the poor in West Rock.

posted by: Brian on February 11, 2010  5:43pm

Bob-

New Haven would surely have the right to fence off a public housing development, no? Cities build fences all the time. I can’t walk into a school or a police station. I can’t walk into parts of East Rock park from the street or into a Yale quad.

You just don’t like this particular fence, and the Independent is willing to reach for any rhetoric to depict Hamden as a bad actor. If the HANH is doing such a fantastic job of outreach, why won’t Darnell Goldson meet with any Hamden residents on the other side of this fence? Why won’t the city at least acknowledge that there was a crime problem in the recent past?

Crime and vandalism were unbearable for the residents in Pine Rock. This concern is completely legitimate and should be addressed.

So my question is this: what is being done to make sure that doesn’t happen again?

As I read it, New Haven wants Hamden to not only take the fence down, but to then kick in money on this project, police it, build bus shelters, re-route buses to a residential street, add traffic to that street, and re-zone the neighborhood for retail development.

Has anybody asked someone living there what they think?

Hamden residents must love it when Yalies who live in East Rock lecture them on why their property values should crater, why they should be more accepting of burglaries, and why their neighborhoods aren’t architecturally important.

Moreover, last year the HANH wasn’t even aware of the maintenance issues at Ribicoff. You said yourself that you hadn’t been over there. Why on earth should people in Hamden put their investments and security in the hands of an agency that already failed at this once before?

posted by: Bob Solomon on February 11, 2010  6:22pm

Brian - I did not say anything about the merits, but said that I think your analogy of a fence on private property is not the same as a fence locking a public thoroughfare.  I did not lecture anyone on property values.  I did not talk about crime. As for whether or not I “like” this fence, I confess - I do not think a municipality should build a barrier to isolate a particular segment of the population. I agree that you have the right to live in a gated community if you choose to do so, but the gate will be on private property.

posted by: Gary on February 12, 2010  12:26am

Jonathon Hopkins said “THE WEST ROCK PROJECTS ROCKVIEW AND BROOKSIDE WERE BUILT AND OCCUPIED BEFORE THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE PINE ROCK NEIGHBORHOOD WAS!!!!!”

So that made crime and vandalism spilling into the Pine Rock area near the fence ok?

Cut this “they were there first” crap.

Simple, the new West Rock housing development proves to be a community which will not represent it’s past problems, and the fence should then come down.

Funny how we rush to assume how perfect the new development is going to be in regards to crime etc.

Don’t count your chickens before they hatch! The new development hasn’t even been built yet!

posted by: Darnell on February 12, 2010  9:29am

Brian:

I neither work for nor sit on the board of the HANH.

I have written to the City Council person on the other side of the fence with a request to coordinate a meeting of residents from both sides.

I have acknowledged that there was a crime problem in that area in the past, and also acknowledge an understanding of the fear that Hamden residents may have. We need to work past those fears and misconceptions that now exist, and can only do so by having an open and honest discussion of the current environment in the area.

posted by: Jonathan Hopkins on February 12, 2010  2:51pm

Gary,
I keep saying that because a lot of posts seem to imply that New Haven built the original projects to make Pine Rock deal with them, when in fact, the Pine Rock neighborhood was developed around the existing housing projects, that says nothing else, nothing about crime nothing about social problems, nothing other than what I said.

Brian,
You should educate yourself about zoning and codes. Retail has existed next to residences, next to offices, next to parks, next to apartments for centuries and not only has that not been a problem, its been an asset. When neighborhoods are mixed income, mixed services, mixed uses and mixed experiences then those neighborhoods are complete.
http://www.dpz.com/images/popop_page/8821-521_z.jpg

http://www.dpz.com/images/popop_page/9501-ShopfrontStreet_z.jpg
West Rock needs Pine Rock because instilling middle class values is necessary in low income areas. Monocultures are no good for people. Monocultures of poverty and unemployment breeds crime, social degradation and ruin, while monocultures of middle class subdivisions breed ignorance, depression, and immobility (for children, old folks and other people who can’t drive). Pine Rock needs a development like West Rock for children to be able to spend their allowance at the corner store while practicing independence for their chauffeurs AKA mom and dad. Old folks need a place here they can retire that isn’t a senior citizen warehouse, but a community with daily needs that are within walking distance.
Separation will not work, we already tried that for 60 years. Integration, involvement, investment, interest, association and interaction should be given a try. West Rock and Pine Rock have the opportunity to be two neighborhoods attached by a vibrant, mixed use neighborhood center of retail, small offices, expensive and affordable apartments, and green space. Choice is the key factor here. You can choose to live in a nice house, with a front lawn, quiet atmosphere, off-street parking and community, and also have the opportunity to walk to a nightlife, to walk to the dentist, a barber, a corner store, a law office, a friend’s apartment, a restaurant, a cafe, etc. Hamden should get involved before an inferior plan is completely settled upon that only addresses a public housing need and not a much more diverse community’s needs.
Why not have a complete community:
http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs122.snc3/16955_1218016205640_1085910074_30540673_8246262_n.jpg

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs122.snc3/16955_1218016125638_1085910074_30540671_7823340_n.jpg

http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs142.snc3/16955_1218016325643_1085910074_30540675_7791909_n.jpg

posted by: Paul on February 15, 2010  1:14am

Jonathan Hopkins -

I’ve been to a corner store! Thanks for telling us what one looks like. The cashier, customers, milk, candy… wow! Amazing!

Now… you get yourself into a car and drive to Pine Rock and tell me where you want to site a store. Then we’ll just tell whoever is living in a house there to move away. And we’ll tell the neighbors there that even if they don’t want a corner store on their corner, we know what’s better for them. And that one of the things that would be better would be to have public housing residents wandering through their neighborhoods while they’re away at work so they can absorb the middle class values that come along with homeownership.

We can also tell them that their kids should go wander around West Rock (!) to become independent from their parents.

And when you go explain this, bring a photo of a corner store with you, because nobody has ever been to one before. I’m sure someone on a quiet street would love to have one operate 24 hours a day to serve as a place to mingle with West Rock residents coming into Hamden to get milk and whatever isn’t nailed down.

You have a 50s nostalgia and a 60s naivete about bringing back a 90s crime spree.

Also - be sure to tell the people in Hamden that the problem wasn’t the crime-infested project in New Haven, but that their middle class suburban neighborhood doesn’t have enough retail.

‘New Urbanism’ seems to have alot of the paternalism and elitism of ‘old urbanism.’

Motto: We don’t/won’t live here, but we know better than the people who do.

posted by: Jonathan Hopkins on February 15, 2010  2:21pm

Paul,
New Urbanism is about going into the past and recovering the design principles that were thrown away after WW2. Its about re-visioning a time before old folks rotted in retirement jails, and could just live near the town center and walk to daily needs; its about providing affordable housing in mixed income areas, instead of warehousing the poor in boxes, and warehousing the middle class in cul de sacs; its about making it a civil right that every child be within walking distance of a school, a park and a place to congregate, instead of being a chauffeur dependent, immobile blob that rebels as a teen because they confuse that with independence.
My neighborhood has higher home prices than Pine Rock and its within walking distance of 3 neighborhood retail centers, section 8 housing, 2 Frederick Law Olmsted Jr Parks, corner stores, medical offices (where I got a wisdom tooth out and walked home afterwards), apartment buildings, multfamily housing, duplexes, single family houses, and there is a lot of ethnic diversity. Pine Rock is a disgusting post War housing development that was built cheaply and quickly entirely around automobile use. My neighborhood is an open grid to the city with access to 3 transit lines, nightlife, on-street parking and shops, which transitions to quiet residential streets with off-street parking and lawns with mixed housing.
If you’re done misrepresenting and misunderstanding what I’m talking about, I can school you in person and break it down for you step by step since you seem to be having a lot of trouble, if not, then keep your mouth shut because you have no idea what you’re talking about.
How is it possible that homes that are 50 years older than Pine Rock’s, have smaller interior space, less bedrooms, smaller yards, are open to a city grid, have section 8 housing intertwined in the neighborhood and have retail on the corners on average are worth $10-20,000 more than larger, suburban, more isolated homes? Besides I don’t even own a car, so that’s another $5-10,000 per year that I can spend on a nicer neighborhood where walking and transit are viable option. Is it because this country values my neighborhood more than Pine Rock’s? So the question really becomes, how do we make Pine Rock a successful neighborhood? The answer and is to get involved in the process of West Rock’s rebuilding and work together to make you’re neighborhood as nice as mine, or as close as possible since there is such a far gap.
Damn dude, you’ve just been sonned.

posted by: Paul on February 15, 2010  6:09pm

Jonathan-

I get that you like your neighborhood. That’s fine. And frankly, I’m glad you do, ...

The point is - and I don’t know why you don’t understand this - there are people who live in this area already. They might like living there, even if you can’t conceive of enjoying it. Some of the houses are quite nice, and if you looked at it in person instead of using Google’s street view, you’d see this.

Hamden is a diverse town, with lots of historic homes that pre-date ‘new’ urbanism and any kind of urbanism in North America. I get that you hate Hamden. Fine. ...

But since you don’t own a car and don’t seem to have done any on-the-ground research in this area, you really might want to reconsider whether you’re a qualified expert or whether you might be (mis)representing people ...

If you think West Rock should be walkable, make it walkable! Go for it! But don’t drag other people along for the ride if they’re happy with their current neighborhood design. Shouldn’t there be a democratic process here? Can you really just dismiss this neighborhood’s public safety concerns *and* insist that they thank you for it, too?

Again - your arrogance and complete disregard for local residents is alarming. If you asked the people in Pine Rock about how to make their neighborhood work, their answer wouldn’t be to smash up their streets and dump a housing project on the New Haven border.

But you haven’t asked them. And even if you did, they might not give you the answer you wanted. Which you think is the only ‘correct’ answer, right?

Please let me know when you’re going to go ‘school’ them with your expert “I don’t drive a car and I don’t live here but I can tell you that your house sucks” knowledge.

...

And for the record, I don’t live in Pine Rock. My neighborhood doesn’t have a nightlife, or a transit line. It’s quiet, and I love it, and I left Boston to come here.

But you’d hate it. So don’t move here and don’t force my neighbors and I to conform to your single vision of what a good neighborhood is.

Why can’t you wrap your head around the idea that different people like different neighborhoods?

...

posted by: Jonathan Hopkins on February 15, 2010  7:05pm

Paul,
I, too, enjoy a quiet residential street. The difference is that I have the option of walking a very short distance to activity, shopping, recreation, etc. Pine Rock is a post war housing development that was designed around principles that mandate automobile use, single use buildings of extremely low density. It has been proven, over the last 6 decades, that this living arrangement is bankrupting the country, is unsustainable and massively inefficient as well as sensor-ally abusive and emotionally distressful to children. No plan has ever been proposed to change Pine Rock, the only changes have been suggested for the border between Pine Rock and West Rock.
Hamden is a very old town with many old buildings, an old Main Street and many nice qualities-I have said very little about Hamden in general, because its rather unimportant when talking specifically about Pine Rock. I have been talking about the section of Hamden west of Pine Rock Ave; it is a series of disorienting curvilinear roads with unimportant, standardized houses (that is an objective description of the neighborhood). I personally do not like it, if the people who live there do like it, then great. I am not talking about physically changing Pine Rock.
Its amusing that you bring up democracy, when segregated neighbors by income through use of a fence is just about the most undemocratic thing ever. There are communities all over this country where it can be demonstrated that poor people and middle class people live intertwined in one neighborhood and there are no problems. The problems come when people are warehoused with lack of availability to jobs, lack of mobility, and isolation. There is now an opportunity to make fix this and Hamden’s stance is to sit back and complain and wait for the project to fail or succeed on its own.
I have been very critical of public housing in many of my posts. I am against the placement of this project, but that is now irrelevant, because the process is in motion. And the only thing to be done now is get involved in the success of the new development, which has a good chance of failing if Hamden continues it’s current stance. To me, that’s not good enough. I have friends who grew up in those projects and who still live in Westville Manor and the idea that I should feel sorry for a bunch of whiney segregationist, lazy, useless, undemocratic suburbanites is laughable to me.