Toe-To-Toe On Immigration

The Rev. Boise Kimber isn’t signing up for New Haven’s ​“sanctuary city” chorus.

Kimber, a prominent minister and local activist, added his voice over the past week to controversies involving labor violations and drug paraphernalia sales at a Newhallville convenience store and the status of reading instruction in New Haven schools.

He has not added his voice to the stream of public demonstrations partly or primarily affirming New Haven’s status as a sanctuary city for undocumented workers and vowing to resist efforts by President-Elect Donald Trump to deport them.

He explained why — and took on New Haven’s popular views on immigration policy — during a passionate appearance on WNHH radio’s ​“Dateline New Haven” program. His stance deviates from that of not just immigration-reform activists, but elected officials like Mayor Toni Harp and members of the Board of Alders.

The black community, Kimber argued, is hurt by efforts to help undocumented immigrants, whom he portrayed as a protected class receiving advantages that African-Americans don’t.

“I think that jobs ought to go to those who are legal citizens,” Kimber declared.

He also tied concerns over immigration to activities at the Newhallville convenience store Dix Deli at 706 Dixwell Ave. The state Department of Labor shut down the store earlier this month and ordered the owner to pay a $9,000 fine as well as $4,938.91 in back wages to two employees; obtain a valid worker’s compensation policy; and show that he has instituted a payroll procedure, according to department spokeswoman Nancy Steffens. Kimber and other members of the Greater New Haven Clergy Association demonstrated outside the store after it reopened and are calling for it to change its ways.

The immigration conversation on WNHH heated up, touching on currents of debate within the black community as well as what common interest can, and cannot, be found among different disadvantaged groups.

Here’s how much of the discussion went:

“It Is African-Americans Being Shot”

WNHH: Are you concerned about [Trump’s] plan to deport three million immigrants?

Kimber: Yes, it does concern me when families are divided. On the other side of this, there is nowhere in America that you can go and be an illegal immigrant and not begin to apply for citizenship in this country. Some things we’ve got to deal with ourselves. So if we know that we are an illegal immigrant, that there are consequences that must be adhered to.

So you’re not of the camp that says we should have amnesty for the 11 million [undocumented immigrants estimated to be in the country] and incorporate them into our society?

I am for people being treated fair and right. I am not being for families being distorted and taking the family away. But what I am for is for people getting the right documents to stay in America.

So do you not agree with us being a sanctuary city?

I think that again if we desire to have a sanctuary city, let’s have a real sanctuary city.

What does that mean?

That means let’s follow the rules and regulations.

The Latino community, most white people supported the introduction of the Elm City resident ID card, have overwhelmingly supported the police order that they don’t question people about their immigration status [so immigrants are] more comfortable talking with police and not becoming victims of crime. But there’s been division in the black community. Some say, ​“these people take our jobs. They should not be here without permission.” Other people have come around and said, ​“we’re not going to divide the most vulnerable parts of the population — we’re all in this together.”

Well, several things. One, if you are an illegal person here, then you are not a part of the political process. Because. …

There are more ways besides voting to be part of the political process.

Every vote counts, though. So you don’t vote. That’s one.

Two is that you don’t have a bank account. Some people are getting paid under the table.

So we’re helping people get bank accounts. That was one of the original ideas behind the Elm City ID card.

People get bank accounts. But then there are others getting paid under the table, and you violate the labor law, the state law. So how do we come to a medium here?

Some people say we should normalize [their activities]. The state has been issuing driver’s licenses so those rules can be followed. People get tax [identification] numbers so they pay taxes. But you know black people have often been called ​“illegal.” Right now in the South they’re being deprived of their right to vote and participate. There’s a long history of the majority, and especially white people who feel they’re not succeeding, [being] whipped up by demagogues and turn[ing] on black people and consider them less than legitimate, less than citizens. Do you think you’re doing the same thing with immigrants, Latino immigrants, right now?

I don’t think we’re doing the same thing. If you look, it is not the number of of Latinos or immigrants that are being shot by police officers. When I look at the television and read the newspaper, it is African-Americans who are being shot.

Are you saying you don’t have common cause? That [African-Americans] are the real victimized minority?

I think there are some things that we can agree upon, some things that we can work together on. But Paul, 300 years, 400 years, we were brought here against our own will. And when we landed here, we were slaves. We fought for the right to become American citizens. It wasn’t white people fighting for us to a higher extent; there may have been some. But now we want to change the laws. But before we change the laws, it’s all right for you to be here and act like a citizen even though you’re not a citizen.

Well my people did not come here not against their will, but they did flee pogroms in Eastern Europe.

They came because they wanted a better life.

And to stay alive, to begin with.

OK. That’s a good thing. That’s real good.

But it does sound to me, Reverend, that you are seeing undocumented immigrants as a protected class with advantages that African-Americans didn’t have and are getting breaks that you think maybe they shouldn’t get.

Yes. For instance, at the Dix Deli in our neighborhood in Newhallville … the store was raided a couple of weeks ago by the [state] labor department. They knew there were all kind of drug paraphernalia.… There were bags for heroin. There were bags for marijuana. And they had a room set up for those items. And that store there has had many fights in front of it. Several people have gotten shot in front of the store.

So when the labor department raided the place, they had undocumented individuals working there and paying them under the table.…

There are a lot of people besides Latinos that are undocumented workers. You’ve got some Africans here that are undocumented. You’ve got some Jamaicans here that are undocumented. There are people in this city from every racial and ethnic group that are here and can bear part of the blame.

So we decided: They’re selling these loose cigarettes. That’s illegal. We went there to have this press conference to share with them: You’re not going to sell this here anymore.

The big concern is not just the drug paraphernalia. The loose cigarettes they sell. The other part of it is you have undocumented workers that are working there. They are within our community. They are saying it’s OK to do this in the black community.…

Is it part of your argument that labor laws protect everybody? Then if an undocumented worker is hired in violation of labor laws, everybody’s rights are challenged? Or do you feel those are jobs that should go to African-Americans who are living here and don’t go to them because [undocumented workers] can be paid under the table because they can threaten to deport them?

I think that jobs ought to go to those who are legal citizens, whether they are black, whether they are white, whether they are Hispanic, whether they are Asians. Jobs ought to go to those on the tax rolls.

Undocumented workers do pay taxes. They get a tax identification number. And they don’t get the benefits of those taxes. They don’t get Social Security, the earned income tax credit …

But see, Paul, we can deal with the loopholes. ​“OK, I have a tax ID number. I pay taxes. But I don’t get the benefit of Social Security because I am not a legal resident.”

So America’s benefiting.

America is bringing in millions and trillions of dollars on undocumented workers. And America is benefiting from undocumented workers because of what they can pay them.

So employers can definitely take advantage of them because they have the threat of deporting them.

Right.

A ​“Level Playing Field”

But let me ask you this: Don’t you have sympathy for people who flee because they’ll get murdered if they stay, if their kids don’t sign up with a drug gang or have their teenaged daughters start being raped, they’ll have their whole family killed? People risk their lives and go [on top of] on these trains … coyotes threaten them.… They come here to be free. It sounds like you don’t want them here.

I sympathize with that. I’ve never said that I don’t want them here.

You just don’t want them to have jobs.

I never said I don’t want them to have jobs. I said that if they’re here, they ought to become a bonafide U.S. citizen.

They do. But it’s not easy. We don’t have a pathway to citizenship. Bipartisan deals broke down.

It’s not easy for people in my community who don’t have jobs!

So why don’t we help everybody instead of erecting barriers?

Paul, I don’t have any problem with helping everybody. Or helping anybody. But it has to be a level playing field.

What’s not level about the playing field hurts everybody who is in a vulnerable position. If you have people in the black community turning on undocumented workers, saying, ​“you have something we don’t get,” the playing field is stacked against everybody who’s working class or poor because of how the rules are written. Isn’t that a race to the bottom?

Paul, we have always been the last hired and the first fired. There are some times that you’ve got to go through the process. I can’t sit here and justify the fact that there are undocumented people in this city and sit here and say that it is OK. I have a moral obligation to say what is right, what is wrong.

What is right is to embrace people who are fleeing for their lives and a better life.

We’re not saying that they cannot come here, they cannot come for a better life. But coming here for a better life, there are rules and regulations …

And they’re following them. It takes years.

It took us years as African-Americans to have the right to vote!

So don’t you want to help other people too?

I have not said that I did not want to help other people. I want to help the least, the lost, the left out. I want to help everybody. But I’m not a legislator. I’m not a Congressperson. I’m not a senator. I’m just a poor preacher who pastors in Newhallville.

Click on the above audio file to hear the full episode of ​“Dateline New Haven” with Boise Kimber; the discussion also included state politics and development in Newhallville.